Found a really great resource online. A Marriage and Family Encyclopedia that has entries on every nation from Brazil to Haiti all the way up to Vietnam and Zambia.
Post your brief comments below regarding "Life Without Fathers or Husbands" by Clifford Geertz
In this YouTube video Geertz speaks on the process of writing an ethnography in anthropology.
http://ksuanth.wetpaint.com/page/Sex+Love+and+Marriage+Lecture
Mosuo Women in China (Life without Fathers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoTrARDa8BU
Tuesday, October 21, 2008
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The cultural aspect of life without fathers is widely affected through an entire family. Without a father, the mother is free to go out and sleep with whomever she wants. There is no stability in the household because man can come and go. This aspect I think influences the mother to leave her children for a man that is not the father of her children. Everyone calls that abandonment which in my terms is likely to happen in my families that do not have a husband or father. Things like this happening tend to influence children, mainly females, to follow the roles that they see their mother play as they grow up with only a mother. I think it is the cultural aspect of what a functional household is that affects the turnouts of many unstable families. The thought of responsibility tends to scare a man, which is why the father is more likely to abandon is family then a mother abandoning her child.
In today’s society the influence to have meaningless sex has caused many untimely births in which the mother and father of the child didn’t even plan on it. Usually when it is not planned, the child may eventually end up in foster care. This is why the definition of the word family is different in so many societies. Characterizing the word family does not mean a child, mother, and father just living together. One thing that is needed to define the word family and also marriage is love. If love is no where involved then you will usually have an unstable marriage or a non caring and degrading family relationship between the group in the society. It is never easy to get involved in marriage but I would like to know how did the word marriage become apart of the cultural aspect of a society because marriage cannot be forced although it was forced in some societies back then. Isn’t marriage just a waste of time to go through when you know in your mind that you may not even love each other?
Eileen Burton
Section XZ24C
When I was watchin the video on the Mosou women, I was surprised that their language had no word for father, and that they had no formal marriages. They would have so called "walking marriages" where the sexual encounter between the man and the woman takes place at night, and leave before morning.
In reading the chapter, I found the ethnography of the Ha culture the most interesting of all. The Ha culture and the Mosou women is a lot different from American culture, since it lacks the ideals of a true family and their “promiscuity”. Before reading the story and watching the video I had no idea this kind of lifestyle occurred in
other parts of the world. It definitely makes me wonder and wanting to learn how people in other societies live different lifestyles other than my own.
Jessica Gil
2:30 class
Response to "Life Without Fathers or Husbands"
The Na people of China live in such a way that there is no husband. Of course this isn’t shocking to most people in a society such as the one here in the U.S. In today’s society it’s common for a single mother to raise her children on her own. Further knowledge of the situation leads to the opposite idea. The Na don’t have a husband and wife relationship. Instead the females live with their kin and the male visits her house to have sexual intercourse, soon after he leaves. The men and women go through life without ever having a permanent relationship.
People belonging to a particular society, unconsciously create ethnocentric ideas. Growing accustom to the way of life in the United States, it might be difficult to comprehend how such a thing can occur. It may be out of the ordinary for people in this society, but for the Na it’s just the way they live.
It leads me to ask how the children in this setting are affected. Perhaps it's the same affect children here in the U.S. have when they’re raised only by their mothers. Since not every child grows up that way, they are affected by seeing their peers in the different living situations; such as having their parents sharing their lives together. For the Na it’s different because it’s a standard in their society. Everyone follows the same idea, therefore it’s not out of the ordinary, and the affect on the children isn't extreme.
In many cultures a family is not limited to a father, mother and children. In the Na tribe in the Yongning hills of Yunnan province there is no marriage. There is also no example of a nuclear family in this culture. There is no existence of in-laws or stepchildren. In this culture the “one night stand” as Americans would call it, is rather a social normalcy. Two people who have no prior knowledge of each other could get together on any given night and have a romantic encounter and even bear children. In this culture women “are available to everyone” (a statement made by an emic) because one man or woman is not tied down to another.
Not knowing from first hand experience but, growing up with out a father must be hard at least as a male. For example, in my life my dad played a major role of who I am. He taught me how to shave and many other things a mother can't teach a son and vice versa. It must be difficult to sit in a school with other children and just realize you don't have a father and everyone else from another culture does.
On the total opposite side of the spectrum is marriage. I'm not choosing any sides but marriage is not doing well with an American divorce rate which is about 50%. Women are also getting married by force to men who are much older because of poverty or old debts in many 3rd world countries as we saw in class with the Afghani example. So the question is, is it better to get married and lose your loves luster with your mate or have a different sexual partner every night?
seMost of us live in a world where a family is defined by a mother and a father, siblings, uncles and aunts and so on. Some people may not have parents, others may not have siblings. But ultimately, each of us and our cultures define fsmily in different ways. It was interesting to read this chapter because it gave an insight into the culture of the Na peoples, one that consisted of no fathers. It is a society where women and men have sex with whomever they please without having to have the commitment to marriage. This is quite different society since in America, and most other countries view such a society as unstable. It is kind of like adultery but not really since there is no actual marriage. This is looked down upon by many people who believe in love and marriage. Yet such a society provides for no jealousy and jealousy is one reason people kill. Maybe such a society isn’t as unstable as some people may think. Each culture has their own definition of family, love and marriage and there is no reason to judge yet it is part of our human culture to have thoughts about certain things that are not normal in our daily lives.
Ant 1001 (4:10)
The way the Na lived their lives without a father wasn't what struck me as odd, but the way in which they have relations with each other. My first thought was of STDs or birth defeats, which isn't spoken about til the end of the ethnography.
I remember what Prof G spoke about in class, how the pictures about family would never have the smiling girl first in America. An ethnographer doesn't want the reader to automaticly pass judgement on a culture being studied, but wants them to maybe get an emic view and see why things may be done differently.
There was mention of jealousy, and how they don't feel it at all. I believe it's healthy to be jealous from time to time. It lets a person know that you care about their actions and only want to be with them. At the same time I can see how jealousy would cause many problems for the Na.
I wonder if government would have stepped in if there hadn't been so many disformed people, or so much disease. It shouldn't be forced on someone to marry another because government demands it, but maybe let it be known who the father is, so incest (which the Na have no word for) can be prevented.
By Jou-Man Huang
Response to essay "Life without Fathers or Husbans"
I think the most interesting part for me in this essay was when the Chinese government stepped in to stop the Na's culture that goes back as early as the 17th century. The Na was very resistant, and it took the reforming effort almost 400 years to finally shape up the Na society into marriage society. This suggests to us, even though it is hard for us to understand and accept, the non-marriage culture works. And when they finally are converted into what we call "normal" family structure today, they are miserable and their kids feel inferior.
In a state that include large geography boundaries. The aspect of "assimilating" a "backwards" culture to the mainstream or dominate culture seems necessary. It is a means of gaining control over the people so that no one can be too different. I think this is why ethnocentrism is so dangerous. First, you recognize other people as backwards, then you force them to change so that you can feel superior and gain control. The Na society maybe very different but their way of living worked.
I can almost relate to the video, my parents have been divorced for almost 17 years. My dad lives in FL and i rarely see him. Through my experiences in life, i would of any day chosen to have a stable family, that consists of a father and a mother. Although i cannot speak from experiencing a "normal" family. The need for a "normal" family is high now in such times of crisis, the stock market is down, the banks are kicking buckets, and everybody's rent is going up. My father has just financially abandoned us, and it changes a life in a instant. I can relate to the video from a financial standpoint. Times get hard, its harder to cope with one parent. As i now know, and it destroys whatever family you have left, my grandparents fight with my mom, my dad fights with my grandparents, my mom fights with my dad. Its all a big circle and when you have a child in the midst of this, normally the child will not grow up with the healthiest mental stability, and a healthy trust for people. As i see in my situation where i must now balance work/maybe getting a second job/school/school work/family fighting/maybe friends/doing good so i dont have to put my children through this, it really stems from my childhood. I lived with my grandparents for 11 years, when i was 3-14 years old. This is also evident in my relationships with the opposite sex. Trust issues, love issues, and lack of mental toughness, all become very evident, causing the child to enclose him or her self in a ball which will much later hurt him/her. It pains me to see kids go through my situation, i have found ways to channel all my emotions and lack of emotions. but when the child goes to college and tries to keep his/her head clean it gets stuffed back with family drama, and kids without ways to channel how they feel will tend to blame themselves and do dumber things as i have seen. And as i look at all my classes i urge the future fathers and future mothers, do not marry for anything else but love. I hate watching the byproducts of these failed marriages, as i am. It doesn't let your child grow up heathy, and its selfish to leave anybody with a child that is your own.
I agree with Jessica that the life without father or husband is normal to the society now since most of women can raise their children by themselves. The Na people in China prove that women can live without the support from men. They also show that women can live equally with the men. Not only the men have the right to have sex with many different women; but also the women have the same right. The most interesting thing I think in Na is that the men will never force a woman to have sex. The men are very gentleman. I think Na may not have any sex criminal so that the women are very trust the men’s personality. It’s very good community for both men and women.
When I read up to the part about the ban I Culture Revolution of China, I agree with Hua that “no other ethnic group in China underwent as deep a disruption as the Na did.” Because the “visiting” in tribe of Na is traditional cultural that has been existing for a very long time, it’s unfair for them to give up their culture while the government doesn’t agree with their culture. The culture Revolution not only ruined the primitive culture in Na, but also ruined many couples who are in love. When I told this chapter to my father, my father said people are not allowed to date freely during the Culture Revolution. If a couple is found that they are dating, they have to walk around the street for shame. Even though the ban is so unfair to the Na people, but the government’s policy may give some benefit to them. Because of the visiting tradition in Na, there is a greater opportunity that women may have sex with men who have same or related DNA. This will increase the percentage that women would carry non-normal children. Therefore, the government ban or education indeed provides some good benefit to the Na people.
According to the essay "Life without Fathers or Husbands,” the Na people live with their kin or siblings. They live without husband. In this society, the men make appointments to visit women’s house. They have sex with whomever they want and do not form permanent relationships during their life times. Nowadays, we can easily see the single mothers in our society. In my country, most of people think that become a single mother is shame thing during the past ten years. However, it became a common thing now and there are people who prefer to be single mother then marry. I think it is because the women can raise and enough support their children by themselves. It was interesting to read and good to learn about other kinds of Chinese tribe’s culture.
I’m very surprised. I have never imagined a world or village like the one I just read. This chapter surprised me. I thought it was going to be about how single mothers raise children without fathers but this had nothing to do with that. This chapter shows us an example of a Chinese Tribal culture, the Na culture where the people don’t have fathers. They don’t know who he is and it doesn’t bother them. So basically you can have sex with your dad. I think that’s disgusting but I’m not anyone to judge them its there culture. They were raised up to think and act that way. The Na culture believes that it is normal to have sexual relationships with whomever you wish. I find it interesting how in the Na culture jealousy does not exist. Men don’t act as if they have a right towards women and the same goes for women. The men and women are treated equally. They have respect towards each other when it comes to sexual relationships. Respect meaning they don’t judge each other. I find that so hard o believe because of our society. It is very different than our society because if a woman sleeps with more than a man she is judged but if a man sleeps with two or more women, he is not judged.I just find this astonishing because it is hard to imagine this. The Na culture has a really different aspect to life than what we are accustomed. Overall I like learning about the Na culture
Caroline Camilo
TV24A
It's crazy how the Earth is made up with countries that lie opposite to each other and have opposite beliefs and customs. In some parts of China, which is on the other side of the world, women that have a different partner each night is not called a "s*ut" or a "whore" like women in our society are called. They can have a sexual encounter with whom they pleased. People in that culture won't be judged for what they do at all, and I consider this to be very open minded. Being raised with old fashion parents and being very religious, I should probably think that what some women do in the world is not right by sleeping with different males, but I believe that everyone has the right to do as they please and if that is their happiness than so be it. Even though I also think they should be if a female is single because I don't think that would be a great romodel to the kids.
Growing up without a father figure in one's life must be hard. Talking from personal experience I don't know what I'll do without my dad so I have much respect to people who grew up and were raised without a father in their life. I respect the Na culture and children from the Mosou culture because I think I wouldn't accept my mother having romantic encounters with another male that is not my father. But I guess that what a child sees when their young stays in their mind and they think theres not problem with it so I guess thats why it must have not caused them jealousy issues and other problems.
I got to agree with the person that didn’t post their name. I come from a single parent household and my parents have been divorced for about 16-17 years. Really to tell you the truth I only seen my father once that I can remember. It surely is a big disadvantage financially plus you lose out on the moral support. But I believe that make me the person I’m today. Because when you grow up without a father you mature much faster which in the end give you a slight advantage over people that grow up with mother and father. Na people in China artificially create this which is really weird because regularly a society would try to preach the orthodox way. To tell you the truths were I was born divorces are really rare and I was the only person with divorced parents in kindergarten and pre-school. But when I came to the United States I saw that here divorced are much more common.
Geertz,Clifford “Life without Fathers or Husbands” In Conformity and Conflict: Readings in cultural Anthropology, 12 ed., ed. Spradley and McCurdy. Allyn & Bacon, 2006, 75- 83
Since the beginning of humankind’s curiosity in the diversity of its cultures, this is the first time an anthropologist has encountered a society whose structure differs totally from that of other societies throughout the rest of the world. This innovation is likely to incite fundamental changes in the way we look at social life and human behavior.
This article explores the work of a Chinese Anthropologist Cia Hua, who did a research among a Chinese tribal group, the Na.We believe that the nuclear family is the fundamental block of society , everything besides seems unbelievable.
The Na of China, live without the foundation of marriage. Na brothers and sisters live together their whole lives, raising the women’s children. Since, like other societies, the Na respects the incest exclusion, they practice a regularity of reserved night visits during which a man goes to a woman’s home.
The Na is a strictly matrilineal society. Children belong to the mother's line of blood-related descendants and the basic relationships in a household are mother-child and brother-sister. All the males of a family are called uncle by the offspring, and all children are treated in the same way no matter who their hereditary father possibly is.
The incest taboo is strongly observed. Blood relatives of the opposite sex are even banned from discussing or hearing about sexual issues in one another's company.
Cai Hua has explored numerous historical Chinese documents based on the long periods of time he spent with the Na. He presents to us with a logical, captivating monograph that shows how a society can function without fathers or husbands. The presence of Na ethnography leads the reader toward a new reflection on the nature of marriage and family.
Clauemry Cabrera,
Clifford Gertz makes a point here. Why can't there be a place without a father figure? It’s perfectly normal in some counties like in china. I know that in the Dominican Republic although divorce exists it’s not normal. If there is a family and the father is missing other people view that family as a failure. My mother is a single mother and she is raised my brother and I almost alone because my parents got divorced when I was 7. The rest of my extended family looked at the divorce as a taboo and started making assumption that she was not going to be able to Handel us both alone. They were almost anticipating the day when she would “fail” as a mother and would not be able to provide for us both. Since then me and my bother have been under a watchful eye in a sense because everyone of my family is waiting to see how my brother and I are going to turn out. Most of my family members want me and my brother to fail because that is what they expect to happen when there is no father figure that there will be no rule or authority. What my family didn't expect was the fact that my brother and I graduated high school and we are in college.
The idea that a person cannot raise children on their own without the help of a husband or wife is proven through the Na’s tradition of “visits.” It works more easily with the Na because it is a tradition where the concept of marriage plays no role in their social organization. It also can work in other cultures where marriage is considered the normal focal point form which a family exists. The reason why single parents have a harder time raising children in a society where marriage is the norm is that married couples have several benefits financially that exist through laws in certain countries and where single parents do not receive those benefits. Those added benefits are typically expected to come with each child so their costs are expected to be covered partially by those benefits. There are also the costs of child raising that is shared between a married couple that again a single parent would have to bare on his/her own. I have seen in my neighborhood of Crown Heights that many single parents don’t raise their children on their own, they instead choose to live with their parents and receive their help through them. I am sure that is very similar to how children are raised within the Na, where the members of the family assist in the labor of child raising.
The idea that a person can raise children on their own without the help of a husband or wife is proven through the Na’s tradition of “visits.” It works more easily with the Na because it is a tradition where the concept of marriage plays no role in their social organization. It also can work in other cultures where marriage is considered the normal focal point from which a family exists. The reason why single parents have a harder time raising children in a society where marriage is the norm is that married couples have several benefits financially that exist through laws in certain countries and where single parents do not receive those benefits. Those added benefits are typically expected to come with each child so their costs are expected to be covered partially by those benefits. There are also the costs of child raising that is shared between a married couple that again a single parent would have to bare on his/her own. I have seen in my neighborhood of Crown Heights that many single parents don’t raise their children on their own, they instead choose to live with their parents and receive their help through them. I am sure that is very similar to how children are raised within the Na, where the members of the family assist in the labor of child raising.
A father is defined as a male parent who ideally helps raise the child/ children. This is the literal definition of a father in most modern societies. A more figurative definition would be a man who may or may not be the biological parent but helps raise a child all the same.
The more figurative definition of a father is what the Na had. Uncles and other male relatives on the mothers side would help raise the child just like the father would do in a nuclear family. Though he wasn't a "biological father" h was surely a father. This is no different then a the role of a step father, uncle, grandparent, or any other male figure who plays the role of a father in modern society.
What the Chinese government is doing to the Na is ethnocentrism at its best, or worst depending on your perspective.
The fact that the Na have neither a word for father nor husband really shows how words shape worlds. The most interesting thing may be how the young woman explained she could not feel jealous because there was no word for jealously therefore it didn't exist to her. In the same way there was no word for marriage causing the relationship, or institution, of marriage to simply not exist.
I personally believe marriage is a beautiful and sacred thing. As such marriage should be embarked on by two people who love each other, not two people who are forced into something neither of them want.
My definition of family has always been defined as grandparents, and then father and mother. But until I read of the chapter and saw the video I found out that many people and cultures have either fatherless or motherless families. I’m not shocked that families have no fathers or mothers because it’s common in America; People are either born into parentless families or families missing one of the other. In the reading I found it very interesting that the Na, although at times interact with men they don’t form permanent families with them like marriage. Also, I was shocked of the Governmental interference of the Chinese.
I couldn’t believe that the Na were kind of like miserable, when they were converted to a “marriage” society. This was interesting because I had trouble understanding it. Growing up with a father and mother they teach me family is important and that you should care for your wife, children, and other family members. Also, by having a big family would make me happy and proud. However, when they wanted to stop the conversion, I keep asking why? I understand that different cultures have different ideas of marriage and how families should be, but it’s just too hard to change my point of view like that. I found this chapter very interesting and I being Chinese had no idea this had ever happened. I gave me a larger perspective of the different cultures of the Chinese; just like language, marriage is complicated as well.
Jeffrey Lam
TV24A
In what they call “the kingdom of daughters”, or the country of Mosuo, I was very surprised by what was said. In their language they do not even have a word for father which seems a bit odd to me. Questions arose when I heard this. Such as what do they call the man who fathers the child? As I soon found out, they just call them “friends”. The women rule the country of Mosuo and they can sleep with whoever they please. The women only use the men as a source of reproduction. The man comes and they have sexual intercourse and the man leaves soon before morning. This is highly frowned upon here in the United States. I guess there is some sort of culture shock due to the difference of cultures. In this culture men and women both are in the workforce and provide for the household but in the Mosuo, all the women do the hard labor. How children are brought up is also effected do to the lack of a father figure in their life. All the children get raised by the women even through their hard schedules. The daughters will eventually come into power. The land will be passed down to the daughters unlike in many other cultures where the men inherit the power and land.
Even though we live in a society where single mothers raising their children alone is common, the Mosuo women do impress me. Before reading “Life without fathers,” I had no idea that families in the world can actually live without fathers. Even more astonishing is that they don’t even have a word for fathers. I think this chapter really astonished me because in our society we tend to have a “nuclear family” composed of the mother, father and children. Even if the parents are divorced, the father visits his children or in other instances, the fathers are the ones that take care of the children.
One of my main concerns is the children. I mean, how are the children raised? I think that not having a father figure sometimes can affect the child’s life. Even though these children from “life without fathers” are accustomed to not having a father, I think they would still want to have a father figure in their lives.
I can say that I'm pretty lucky to have had both parents be there to raise me. I can't imagine how my childhood would have been without either of my parents. Although my dad would work at my uncle's restaurant(which is in Peurto rico) for couple years I knew he was in my life and he would come back to visit. But for the Na, they had no father figure at all, it was all women household. They didnt even have words for things like marriage and divorce. It's amazing how their society lasted with single mothers raising children. I found it interesting that men had a lot of sexual partner. It was said that they may have hundreds of sex partners during their lifetime. Their process of going to each others house was pretty funny to me because it was like a common thing to do: The men would go to a woman's house for the sole purpose of sex and it was expected. I also now learned where that poem/song "Love and Marriage.. go together like a horse and carriage" came from because I used to watch the show "Married with Children" and that was the main theme song.
There are a lot of single-parent families nowadays, in most cases, families without fathers and husbands. It could be explained by the fact that men are more likely to leave a family. Also, men have shorter life expectancy. It is more considerable in those countries where all men are required to go to the army.
In families without father, mother can not concentrate on taking care of her children as much as in "normal" family. She needs to work in order to support her family. As a result, many families without father live in poverty and children have less control from the only parent.
However, children from such family are not very different from "normal" kids. They don't have any extra physical or mental disabilities. They could have some psycological problem, but relationships with their friends of the same age could neutralize it.
Women will never know what a world without men will be like. The intents of the ruling elite which are still "Men" are to gain complete mastery of the entire world without other men to rival them. The Women will be herded like cattle at best, the ones believed to be unattractive will be put to death no different then a race horse with a broken leg, they will say it's humane thing to do. Women will realize that there dead brothers, and fathers got the better end of the deal
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